NewStats: 3,265,135 , 8,185,761 topics. Date: Friday, 13 June 2025 at 03:29 PM 1o5e36

Antichristian2:

Na JW yardstick not mine!

You don't get it, your Muhammad and all his disciples are cultists too going by your yardstick!

QuinQ:

Have you forgotten "the book" is the Bible, the infallible word of God?

Prove it is that infallible word of the true God not just by quoting but by presenting the benefits of the book as found in your own religion! 2Corinthians 3:6

TenQ:

I have addressed your problems in the post above.
BUT
Let me ask you a question.

1. Jibril is an Angel, when he came to mary as a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
2. As a perfect man, did Jibril have saliva in his mouth and does he have teeth and intestines?



You desire a Deity in the image of creations and when you see that the True God has incompatible natures to your image, you throw tantrums.

The Question is: Do you accept the Challenge!


Trinity is RATIONAL even though for God, there is NOTHING in existence Like His Trinity.
This is why with the Trinity of Giod, we can understand
How He could be Omnipresent
How He could be Omnipotent
How He could be Omniscient
AND
With the Taoheed, Allah is Neither Omnipresent, NOR Omnipotent, NOR Omniscient.


Who should be Greater, the One who was Sent or the One Who Sent Him?
Who is Greater, the father and the Son?

Who is greater, Your Soul or your Body?

If according to your hadith, AIR is ABOVE Allah and Water is Below Him, Allah is a subset of the Universe!

Dear TenQ,

Thank you for your reply. I will now respond to the points you raised with clarity and respect, while emphasizing the need for a logically consistent and theologically sound discussion.

1. The Analogy of Jibril (Gabriel) Fails

Your comparison between the angel Jibril (peace be upon him) appearing as a man and the incarnation of God in the person of Jesus is a false analogy and theologically unsound. Let me explain why:

Jibril appearing in human form did not change his essence; he remained an angel sent by God, merely manifesting in visible form for a specific purpose. There is no claim in Islam that Jibril became human or took on the limitations of humanity — he appeared as a man, but did not become one ontologically.

In contrast, Christian theology asserts that Jesus was fully God and fully man — not merely appearing as human, but actually taking on human limitations: ignorance, hunger, sleep, pain, and ultimately death.

This is the core contradiction we’ve been highlighting: how can the eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful God become a finite, limited, and mortal being without ceasing to be God? You cannot solve a contradiction in nature by citing a temporary form assumed by an angel — these are fundamentally different categories.

2. You Misrepresent Tawhid and Islamic Theology

Your claim that under Tawhid, Allah is “neither omnipresent, nor omnipotent, nor omniscient” is not only incorrect, it reveals a deep misunderstanding of Islamic monotheism.

In Islam:

Allah is Omnipotent: “Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.” (Qur'an 2:20)

Allah is Omniscient: “And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him.” (Qur’an 6:59)

Allah is Omnipresent in Knowledge and Power (not physically, as Islam does not anthropomorphize God): “He is with you wherever you are.” (Qur’an 57:4)

You confuse physical omnipresence with divine oversight, which in Islamic theology is not limited by space or time. Unlike the Christian concept that necessitates God becoming flesh, Islam maintains that God transcends creation entirely while His knowledge, power, and will encom all.

3. Trinity Is Not Rational Merely Because It Is Complex

You argue that “Trinity is rational even though there is nothing like it in existence.” But that is precisely the issue: to assert three persons as one being — each fully God but not each other — is not “complex” but contradictory when examined logically.

Saying “God is one in essence but three in person” creates semantic confusion unless clearly defined. In practice, this leads to affirming:

Jesus is fully God.

The Father is fully God.

Jesus is not the Father.

Yet there is only one God. This is not complexity; it is logical incoherence, because it violates the law of non-contradiction.

Mystery is not a license for contradiction. Divine nature can transcend human comprehension, yes, but it cannot defy logic — otherwise, the concept becomes meaningless and self-refuting.

4. False Assumption About Allah’s Location

You concluded with a bizarre and inaccurate claim:

> “If according to your hadith, air is above Allah and water is below Him, Allah is a subset of the universe.”

This is a misunderstanding of classical Islamic theology. While Allah is described in Islamic scripture as being above the heavens (e.g., Qur’an 67:16-17), this is understood in a manner befitting His majesty, not as a physical location with spatial limitations.

The hadith you refer to — presumably referencing the Throne (‘Arsh) being above water — does not mean Allah is “within” the universe or a subset of it. In fact, He is the Creator of space, time, air, and water. Islamic theology is emphatically clear that:

> “There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Qur’an 42:11)

Thus, He is not bound by His creation. This is a conceptual distinction Christianity blurs by insisting God can become a man — a notion Islam rightly rejects as anthropomorphism.

5. The Core Question Still Remains Unanswered

Despite your diversions and counter-challenges, the foundational issue I originally raised still stands:

> ❓👉How can Jesus be fully God while possessing qualities that contradict the divine nature — such as ignorance (Mark 13:32), hunger, temptation, growth, and death?

None of your analogies or theological claims have resolved this contradiction. Instead, you’ve pivoted to other topics and launched unfounded claims about Islam.

6. An Open Invitation to Sincere Reason

As Muslims, we affirm that God's oneness (Tawhid) is clear, consistent, and free of contradiction. We call to the pure monotheism that was preached by all prophets, including Jesus (peace be upon him), who affirmed:

> “My God and your God.” (John 20:17)

If you wish to continue this dialogue, I invite you to return to the original question and address it logically, not emotionally, and without misrepresenting Islamic beliefs.

Warm regards,
Jimrohn

BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse

MaxInDHouse:

Prove it is that infallible word of the true God not just by quoting but by presenting the benefits of the book as found in your own religion! 2Corinthians 3:6

You are the one quoting. One benefit is, as true Christians we don't try to force people to stay in an organization that they don't want to stay in, for fear of being disfellowshipped and shunned

TenQ:

I agree with you on this as even Angels do not have to eat.




The implication of CAN HE DO SOMETHING without ceasing to be Almighty is clear. Allah CANNOT, thus He cannot be God.

The God of the CHristians and Jews can eat if He chooses to without ceasing to be ALMIGHTY

Genesis 18:-1-8
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs[b] of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” 7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

You just affirmed why Allah cannot be Omnipotent.



Here is another question that exposes the Limitation of Allah as He is NOT Omnipresent nor is he Omnipotent.
The God of the Jews and CHristians can be in Heaven and on Earth at the same time

Genesis 19:24
24Then YHWH rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah— from YHWH out of the heavens.


Islamic Taoheed makes it impossible for Allah to be simultaneously on his throne above the waters after the seventh heaven and anywhere else at the same time.
Psalm 139:8
"If I ascend to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol[Hell or Grave], You are there."

God as the Holy Spirit fills the heavens and the earth
Jeremiah 23:23-24
Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Allah cannot even enter the toilet, he can only know what you are doing inside the toilet isn't it?

Can any Deity that is neither Omnipotent nor Omnipresent be God!?



I don't know if this is ignorance or celebrate taqiyya.
Death is NOT the cessation of LIFE:
Death is the Disconnection between the Body and the Soul/Spirit!
Death is the Translocation of a person from the Physical Realm to the Spiritual Realms


If this is NOT True,
What is the purpose if the Islamic punishment of the grave if there is cessation of life?


Is death the cessation of Life?
Does Allah have the Power to Die and YET remain Alive?


Knowing the meaning of death,
You have just confirmed that Allah cannot be ALMIGHTY as there are many things he cannot do!

Did your prophet tell lies about Adam, Abraham, Joseph and Moses when he rode the Al-Burak to paradise or explain if a partial resurrection happed with the prophets?


How many Iblis exist in the Universe?
Is he not one like Allah?

Can Iblis be simultaneously in Heaven and on Earth at the same time?
Is he not just like Allah in Omnipresence and omnipotence?



You are still justifying that many things are impossible for Allah to do!
Luke 1:37
"For with God nothing will be impossible."

Jeremiah 32:27
"Behold, I am YHWH, the God of all flesh; is there anything too difficult for Me?"

Unfortunately, as one of Allah's slave, you it that his nature make manythings IMPOSSIBLE for Him without making him less than the Almighty


If the WORD became Human and reduced his power and attribute that He may live within US and entered the world as a represent.
The Word is like the Kunfayakun of God sent as a Messenger of His Power and Presence in Creating and making things to be.
The Bible says the WORD became Human, this is the One we know as Jesus.

The Father will NOT Leave His throne in Heaven
The Holy Spirit will NOT abandon being EVERYWHERE in space and Time.
Thus, the Kunfayakun of God becomes the Messenger of God.

A mundane example:
Your Soul is YOU,
your Body is YOU
But
Your Body runs Errand for you Soul


You disappoint me with your understanding of spiritual things. In Islam, is death a form of non-existent annihilation or a translocation ?


If Allah doesn't limit his attribute, can you see him?
Id Allah doesn't limit his attributes, do you think the Angels can behold him?
Don't forget that your prophet said you will see your Lord as clearly as you see the moon.

It is understandable your fears as Allah cannot enter his creation without ceasing to be Almighty.
YHWH can enter His creation without ceasing to be Almighty.

By His choice he came to represent us Humanity that He may legally become our Ransom from the Fire of Hell.
The Pre-Existent WORD became Human
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


All these make Allah a subset of his creation
Is it untrue that Above Allah is AIR?

Sunan Ibn Majah 182
Waki' bin Hudus narrated that his paternal uncle Abu Razin said:
"I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: He was above the clouds, below which was air, and above which was air and water. Then He created His Throne above the water.'"

same with if you will speak the truth and let iblis be ashamed
Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3109

Dear TenQ,

Thank you again for your engagement. However, I must clarify that your recent message demonstrates a fundamental confusion between what constitutes true omnipotence and what amounts to theological contradiction. Let us proceed with clarity and logic to address your points one by one.

1. Does God's Inability to Contradict His Nature Make Him "Not Almighty"?

You argue that because Allah cannot eat, enter a toilet, or die, He is “not Almighty.” But this reflects a flawed understanding of omnipotence. Omnipotence does not mean the ability to do the logically absurd or self-contradictory. It means absolute power within the bounds of coherent possibility.

Can God cease to be God?

Can God lie, sleep, or become ignorant?

If your answer is yes, then your concept of God permits imperfection. If your answer is no, then you too affirm that God cannot do certain things — not due to weakness, but due to divine perfection.

As Muslims, we affirm:

> “Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.”
(Qur’an 2:20)

But “all things” refers to all logically coherent possibilities — not self-negating absurdities such as “a square circle” or “an uncreated created being.”

2. Genesis 18 and the Misunderstanding of Theophany

You cited Genesis 18 to prove that God appeared and ate. However, this age states three men appeared — and Jewish commentators for centuries have viewed these as angels. In fact, Christian scholars themselves debate whether it is a literal theophany or a visionary encounter.

Eating food, having a body, and resting under a tree are created functions — if you insist this was God literally eating, then you imply God has a digestive system and physical limitations, which is idolatrous in Islam and problematic even in classical Christian theology.

> “God is not a man…”
— Numbers 23:19

3. Omnipresence and Misapplied Texts

You quoted Psalm 139, Jeremiah 23, and others to argue that “YHWH fills the heavens and the earth.” But you conflate knowledge and awareness with literal indwelling.

Islam affirms that:

> “There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.”
(Qur’an 42:11)

Allah’s knowledge and power extend to all things, but He is not physically inside creation, nor composed of it. Unlike pagan beliefs or pantheism, Islam draws a clear line between Creator and creation. Entering creation implies containment, which contradicts transcendence.

4. "Can Allah Die?" — A Category Error

You asked if Allah can die and still remain alive. This is self-refuting. Death is not a mere “translocation” — it is a disconnection of soul and body, which applies to created life. God has no body, no beginning, and no soul-spirit dualism.

To ask if Allah can die is like asking:

Can God become non-eternal and still be eternal?

Can God become ignorant and still remain omniscient?

Such questions are inherently contradictory. A self-sufficient being does not — and cannot — die.

5. Regarding the Trinity and the "Word Becoming Flesh"

You affirm that the Father remains on the throne, the Spirit is everywhere, and the “Word” becomes flesh — yet you say all are co-equal and one essence.

This is your greatest contradiction:

The Son dies, but the Father does not — yet you call them equal?

The Son is tempted (Matthew 4:1), ignorant (Mark 13:32), and hungry — but you say he is the same as the all-knowing, self-sufficient God?

This is not unity — this is division under the guise of mystery.

6. “Can Allah Enter a Toilet?” – A Misguided and Blasphemous Analogy

Your reference to whether Allah can enter a toilet is both inappropriate and fundamentally flawed. Allah knows what is inside every heart and every atom of the universe without “entering” into filth or matter. His knowledge and will do not require physical entry.

> “He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, but they do not encom Him in knowledge.”
(Qur’an 20:110)

To say God must enter a filthy place to prove power is to insult God, not glorify Him.

7. On Death and the Punishment of the Grave

You claimed that death is just “translocation,” not cessation. This is partially true — but irrelevant to Allah. The punishment of the grave is for the soul, and Islam affirms that the soul remains conscious after physical death.

But Allah is not a soul or a body — He is eternal and uncreated. Hence, applying death to Him is a category mistake.

8. You Compared Iblis and Allah — This is Blasphemy

Your claim that “if Iblis can be in two places, then so can Allah” is an outrageous comparison. Iblis is a created jinn — not omnipresent. He works through his minions and deception. To compare the Lord of the Worlds to a cursed creation is deeply blasphemous.

Allah is not “like Iblis,” nor like anything in creation.

> “There is nothing whatever like unto Him.”
(Qur’an 42:11)

9. Misinterpreting Islamic Hadiths

You cited weak or misunderstood hadiths to claim Allah is “surrounded by air.” This reflects ignorance of genre and language. Classical scholars explained that such narrations are metaphorical or describe creation’s structure — not God’s spatial limits.

The Throne is a symbol of authority, not containment. Allah is not subject to “above” or “below.” His being is not like ours. He is unlike anything.

Conclusion

You have attempted to define divine perfection by proposing absurdities:

That God must be able to eat, die, enter toilets, and limit Himself in order to be “omnipotent.”

This is not omnipotence — it is blasphemy.

Islamic monotheism is not a denial of God’s greatness — it is its purest affirmation. Allah is exalted above:

Needing food or space

Being born or dying

Being composed of parts

Having "three persons" with differing wills

We reject theologies that ascribe weakness to God in the name of “love” or “incarnation.” We uphold the truth that God is:

> “The One, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born. And there is none like unto Him.”
(Qur’an 112)

We invite you to abandon incoherent theology and return to the clear message of all prophets: Worship the One, Absolute God — without partners, incarnations, or intermediaries.

Respectfully,
Jimrohn

BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse

QuinQ:

You are the one quoting. One benefit is, as true Christians we don't try to force people to stay in an organization that they don't want to stay in, for fear of being disfellowshipped and shunned.

So where are people been forced to a religion?

MaxInDHouse:


So where are people been forced to a religion?

Not forced to , forced to stay through all sorts of devious means like severing ties so that all they have is the group. I actually googled it but I know I'd be banned if I show the result. There are several groups named, the first one is a group called Jehovah's Evidence or something like that

QuinQ:

Not forced to .

Exactly!
Jesus said:
“No man who has put his hand to a plow and looks at the things behind is well-suited for the Kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62

So it's better never to Jesus' disciples than ing and thinking of leaving for the things you left behind:

For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Can you see that there is no knowledge about Christianity in you?

Maximus692:

Exactly!
Jesus said:
“No man who has put his hand to a plow and looks at the things behind is well-suited for the Kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62

So it's better never to Jesus' disciples than ing and thinking of leaving for the things you left behind:

For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Can you see that there is no knowledge about Christianity in you?

Whar has any of these to do with belonging to an organization or any specific group of Christians?
You see how brainwashed you are?

QuinQ:

Whar has any of these to do with belonging to an organization or any specific group of Christians?
You see how brainwashed you are?

So if anyone Jesus' group and later leave can such a person gain God's approval?

That's what it means to be a member of the true Christian group not false religions claiming Christians!

MaxInDHouse:


So if anyone Jesus' group and later leave can such a person gain God's approval?

That's what it means to be a member of the true Christian group not false religions claiming Christians!

So why did founder of JW leave?
Case closed!😅

QuinQ:

So why did founder of JW leave?
Case closed!😅

Funny Catholic Churchian!

Who founded JW?

MaxInDHouse:

Funny Catholic Churchian!

Who founded JW?

So you see, it is about the truth NOT any organization.
See how dramatically you lost that one?😅

Who founded... Google is your friend

QuinQ:

So you see, it is about the truth NOT any organization.
See how dramatically you lost that one?😅
Who founded... Google is your friend

Ọmọ Jesus is the founder that's why all the things Jesus said about his group is fulfilling with JWs unlike your Catholic Church where you people worship images!

MaxInDHouse:

Ọmọ Jesus is the founder that's why all the things Jesus said about his group is fulfilling with JWs unlike your Catholic Church where you people worship images!

I'm not Catholic but Catholics don't have to worship any images. No one is going to disfellowship them or shun them for it. You see? That's the difference between a cult and non-cult!

JimRohn:

....

What u Muslims cannot take is what you dish out to others...

If someone enters ur Quran to invalidate your religious text like saying Mohammed is not a prophet of God you will yell blasphemy....

Yet u enter another religious text telling them their belief is wrong, because ur Quran says another thing

Why don't u stick to what u choose to call God and let others choose what they want to call God.......

advanceDNA:


What u Muslims cannot take is what you dish out to others...

If someone enters ur Quran to invalidate your religious text like saying Mohammed is not a prophet of God you will yell blasphemy....

Yet u enter another religious text telling them their belief is wrong, because ur Quran says another thing

Why don't u stick to what u choose to call God and let others choose what they want to call God.......

Dear advanceDNA,

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your engagement, though I believe there may have been a misunderstanding regarding the nature and intent of my original question.

My inquiry was not an emotional attack or an act of disrespect. It was a theological and philosophical question, aimed at clarifying a point of doctrine central to Christianity itself — namely, the nature of Jesus and how it aligns with the definition of God.

It is entirely reasonable — in any interfaith dialogue — for individuals to examine and critique one another's theological claims, provided it is done with respect and sincerity. This is not "invalidating" anyone's faith out of malice; it is simply part of serious religious discourse. If a Christian asks why Muslims believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a prophet, or challenges aspects of Islamic belief, that is not automatically “blasphemy” — it is a valid question that we Muslims must be prepared to answer with evidence, logic, and good character.

In fact, even the Bible itself encourages reasoning and testing of claims:

> “Test everything; hold fast what is good.” — 1 Thessalonians 5:21

You are free to ask hard questions about Islam — and I welcome such engagement. But just as you are free to question Islamic beliefs, I too must be free to ask difficult but sincere questions about Christian theology, especially when they relate to internal consistency and the concept of God’s nature.

The question I raised is not based solely on the Qur'an. It is based on the Bible itself — ages like James 1:13, Mark 13:32, Matthew 4:1, and others. These verses raise a theological tension within the doctrine of the Trinity that deserves thoughtful consideration.

If Jesus is fully God, how can he be tempted, grow in wisdom, not know the Hour, or suffer human weakness? This is not a trivial question, nor is it disrespectful. It is a fundamental inquiry into the coherence of what it means to say "Jesus is God."

Rather than making this personal or defensive, I invite you again to engage with the question intellectually and respectfully — just as I would do if you questioned Islamic beliefs.

Let’s have a dialogue of ideas, not a clash of emotions.

Warm regards,
Jimrohn

BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse

JimRohn:
Dear advanceDNA,

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your engagement, though I believe there may have been a misunderstanding regarding the nature and intent of my original question.

There is no misunderstanding .....u are only trying to mask the idea that your Allah is perfect and better with a sloppy theological argument...

U deliberately ignore other facts of the bible that emphasizes on the divinity of Jesus and the reason why he walked the earth in flesh for the period that he did......these facts are interwoven from Genesis to the s of the prophets (which are not even in your Quran), all the way to the 4 gospels....

U ignoring of these facts shows your real aim is just to invalidate another person's faith by referencing your own Quran, comparing the divinity of Jesus to your Quran's idea of what Allah is.....

Both are different faith and beliefs...... You cannot use your faith and religion to validate or invalidate the christian faith, hiding your aim under mere theological argument

Maximus692:




As how nah?

Didn't you know?
You can leave and come back to any non-cult church as you wish. Cult ones, they warn their to shun you or they'd be disfellowshiped

Mr JimRohn
I hope the Nairaland bot isn't rigged against my posts as it gets banned almost always.

Here I just extracted my replies without context after another ban for no reason. It is no fun if after making a reply for it to get banned.





I did not compare Jibril with the incarnation of God. My objective is to ask you questions about the incarnation of Jibril for if you cannot comprehend it by answering my questions, then it is an exercise in futility for you to understand God that is far more complex.

So, please answer my questions and I hope you will be truthful
1. Jibril is an Angel, when he came to Mary as a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
2. As a perfect man, did Jibril have saliva in his mouth and does he have teeth and intestines?

So also, In the Qur'an,
1. Jesus is a Spirit from Allah
2. Jesus is the Word of Allah cast down to Mary
Question:
A. When Jesus became a Messenger as a man on earth, did he stop being a Spirit and the Word of Allah?
B. Let's assume that the Messenger was killed, does it mean that the Spirit and the Word of Allah was killed?

Please go straight to the answers!

Pick any dictionary and define Omnipresence.
After, let's apply it to Allah and check if he is Omnipresent. Omnipresence mean being fully present everywhere in space and time. I did not misrepresent the definition.

By dictionary definition, is Allah Omnipresent?
NO!

If according to your hadith, AIR is ABOVE Allah and Water is Below Him, Allah is a subset of the Universe! Thus, he cannot be Omnipresent.
Sunan Ibn Majah 182
Waki' bin Hudus narrated that his paternal uncle Abu Razin said:
"I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: He was above the clouds, below which was air, and above which was air and water. Then He created His Throne above the water.'"


Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3109
"Ahmad ibn Mani' reported to us, Yazid ibn Harun reported to us, Hammad ibn Salama informed us from Ya'la ibn Ata' from Wakii ibn Hudus, from his uncle Abu Razin, who said: I said, 'O Messenger of God, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said, 'He was in a state of nothingness (or solitude), with air below Him and air above Him, and He created His Throne upon the water.' Ahmad ibn Mani' said that Yazid ibn Harun said: 'the solitude (or state of nothingness) means there was nothing with Him.' Abu Isa said: Hammad ibn Salama reported it this way from Wakii ibn Hudus, and Sh'bah, Abu Awana, and Hisham say Wakii ibn 'udus (instead of Hudus), and that is more authentic. Abu Razin's name was Laqiit ibn Amir. And he said, 'This is a good hadith.'"

What can be clearer than this?
Air above Allah AND Air and Water below Allah!

The loads of scientific "mis-miracles" in the Qur'an proves that Allah is NOT Omniscient irrespective of what you Muslims want to believe.
Eg.
Does the sperm become a baby?
Did Dhul Qarnayn see the sun set in murky waters?
Did the Samaritan really make the golden calf for the children of Israel?
Did some men sleep in a cave for 300 years?

Too many errors show that the author of the Qur'an is a 7th century Arabian man!
Exactly the point.
How is it that Abraham, Adam. Moses are dead BUT your prophet spoke to them in paradise?

It makes sense to you right.

Please explain how,
Jesus according to the Qur'an is a Trinity of Spirit from Allah, Word of Allah and a Human messenger of Allah?
Note: that the only other spirit you know in Islam is Jibril . The only word of Allah you know is Jesus. A spirit is not human and neither is the word of Allah!
Also, note that Jibril is NOT the word of Allah!

Please, explain the contradiction according to your understanding.
Read the two hadiths again and prove to me that it didn't say air was above and below Allah.
Two bad for you because I perceive yours is a case of deliberate ignorance.

Your argument is like saying, how can physical universe come into being from a spoken word!

I have shown you from the scripture the nature of my God YHWH.
He is simultaneously Everywhere as a Spirit
He is simultaneously on His Throne in the Heavens
He is anywhere else as the Word (Kunfayakun) where Gods Power is to be made manifest.

You and I understand that these Attributes is IMPOSSIBLE for Allah BUT don't commit the error of Generalisation.

It's okay if you cannot understand YHWH!

All a person needs to reject Islam is the Love for the Truth.
Unfortunately, Islam is a set of cascades of lies that you Muslims will deliberately TWIST the plain interpretation of your Qur'an and Hadiths for LIES cooked up by your scholars.

The truth sets free.

QuinQ:

Didn't you know?
You can leave and come back to any non-cult church as you wish. Cult ones, they warn their to shun you or they'd be disfellowshiped

So you means Jesus and all his disciples are CULT because that's exactly what he taught them! Matthew 10:24-25

advanceDNA:


There is no misunderstanding .....u are only trying to mask the idea that your Allah is perfect and better with a sloppy theological argument...

U deliberately ignore other facts of the bible that emphasizes on the divinity of Jesus and the reason why he walked the earth in flesh for the period that he did......these facts are interwoven from Genesis to the s of the prophets (which are not even in your Quran), all the way to the 4 gospels....

U ignoring of these facts shows your real aim is just to invalidate another person's faith by referencing your own Quran, comparing the divinity of Jesus to your Quran's idea of what Allah is.....

Both are different faith and beliefs...... You cannot use your faith and religion to validate or invalidate the christian faith, hiding your aim under mere theological argument

Dear advanceDNA,

Thank you once again for your response. I appreciate your willingness to engage in this important dialogue, though I must respectfully clarify and respond to some of your assertions.

First, it is important to reiterate that interfaith theological discussions must not be reduced to accusations of hidden motives or bad faith. I have made no appeal to the Qur'an in the question I posed. Rather, I referenced the Bible itself — texts from the New Testament — to raise a genuine theological inquiry about the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation and the divine nature of Jesus.

When I quoted ages like James 1:13 ("God cannot be tempted by evil", Mark 13:32 ("no one knows the hour, not even the Son", and Matthew 4:1 (Jesus being tempted by Satan), I was pointing to verses within your own scripture. If my intention were merely to assert Islamic theology, I would not need to rely on Biblical verses at all. The fact that I’m using your texts demonstrates an internal critique — not an external imposition of belief.

You mentioned that I am "masking" an idea that "Allah is better" with a "sloppy theological argument." I would respectfully submit that asking sincere questions about the coherence of Christian doctrine — particularly how divine attributes are reconciled with human limitations — is neither sloppy nor disrespectful. Rather, it reflects a centuries-long tradition of theological reasoning and scrutiny, found in both Islamic and Christian intellectual history.

Moreover, your assertion that I’m "ignoring facts of the Bible" presumes that these facts are self-evident or unanimously understood. Yet, the question of Jesus’ divinity, his nature, and the relationship between the human and divine in Christian theology has been debated extensively by Christian theologians themselves for nearly two millennia. Councils, creeds, and schisms arose precisely because these were — and still are — deeply complex theological issues.

As a Muslim, I do not deny that you are free to believe in the Incarnation, the Trinity, and the divinity of Christ. But belief is not immune from scrutiny — especially when such beliefs claim to represent ultimate truth. Just as Christians feel compelled to question and critique Islamic doctrines (and often do so openly), it is both reasonable and necessary that Islamic thinkers engage Christian theology with respectful but rigorous analysis.

You are correct in noting that Christianity and Islam are different in their conceptions of God. Precisely for that reason, open and respectful dialogue must allow for each side to examine the internal logic of the other’s beliefs. I have not invalidated your faith — I have simply asked a theological question that, if there is an answer, I am open to hearing.

Rejecting such questions by attributing ulterior motives or dismissing them as mere attacks does not serve the purpose of interfaith understanding. If anything, it closes the door to the very kind of honest dialogue that our religious traditions encourage.

I remain open to your insights — particularly if you would like to explain, from within Christian doctrine, how the divine attributes of God (omniscience, immutability, perfection) are reconciled with the limitations experienced by Jesus during his earthly life. If the answer lies in theological nuance, I welcome it. But I hope we can rise above accusations and engage in a sincere exchange of ideas.

With respect and sincerity,
jimrohn

BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse advanceDNA

NairaLTQ:
Mr JimRohn
I hope the Nairaland bot isn't rigged against my posts as it gets banned almost always.

Here I just extracted my replies without context after another ban for no reason. It is no fun if after making a reply for it to get banned.





I did not compare Jibril with the incarnation of God. My objective is to ask you questions about the incarnation of Jibril for if you cannot comprehend it by answering my questions, then it is an exercise in futility for you to understand God that is far more complex.

So, please answer my questions and I hope you will be truthful
1. Jibril is an Angel, when he came to Mary as a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
2. As a perfect man, did Jibril have saliva in his mouth and does he have teeth and intestines?

So also, In the Qur'an,
1. Jesus is a Spirit from Allah
2. Jesus is the Word of Allah cast down to Mary
Question:
A. When Jesus became a Messenger as a man on earth, did he stop being a Spirit and the Word of Allah?
B. Let's assume that the Messenger was killed, does it mean that the Spirit and the Word of Allah was killed?

Please go straight to the answers!

Pick any dictionary and define Omnipresence.
After, let's apply it to Allah and check if he is Omnipresent. Omnipresence mean being fully present everywhere in space and time. I did not misrepresent the definition.

By dictionary definition, is Allah Omnipresent?
NO!

If according to your hadith, AIR is ABOVE Allah and Water is Below Him, Allah is a subset of the Universe! Thus, he cannot be Omnipresent.
Sunan Ibn Majah 182
Waki' bin Hudus narrated that his paternal uncle Abu Razin said:
"I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: He was above the clouds, below which was air, and above which was air and water. Then He created His Throne above the water.'"


Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3109
"Ahmad ibn Mani' reported to us, Yazid ibn Harun reported to us, Hammad ibn Salama informed us from Ya'la ibn Ata' from Wakii ibn Hudus, from his uncle Abu Razin, who said: I said, 'O Messenger of God, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said, 'He was in a state of nothingness (or solitude), with air below Him and air above Him, and He created His Throne upon the water.' Ahmad ibn Mani' said that Yazid ibn Harun said: 'the solitude (or state of nothingness) means there was nothing with Him.' Abu Isa said: Hammad ibn Salama reported it this way from Wakii ibn Hudus, and Sh'bah, Abu Awana, and Hisham say Wakii ibn 'udus (instead of Hudus), and that is more authentic. Abu Razin's name was Laqiit ibn Amir. And he said, 'This is a good hadith.'"

What can be clearer than this?
Air above Allah AND Air and Water below Allah!

The loads of scientific "mis-miracles" in the Qur'an proves that Allah is NOT Omniscient irrespective of what you Muslims want to believe.
Eg.
Does the sperm become a baby?
Did Dhul Qarnayn see the sun set in murky waters?
Did the Samaritan really make the golden calf for the children of Israel?
Did some men sleep in a cave for 300 years?

Too many errors show that the author of the Qur'an is a 7th century Arabian man!
Exactly the point.
How is it that Abraham, Adam. Moses are dead BUT your prophet spoke to them in paradise?

It makes sense to you right.

Please explain how,
Jesus according to the Qur'an is a Trinity of Spirit from Allah, Word of Allah and a Human messenger of Allah?
Note: that the only other spirit you know in Islam is Jibril . The only word of Allah you know is Jesus. A spirit is not human and neither is the word of Allah!
Also, note that Jibril is NOT the word of Allah!

Please, explain the contradiction according to your understanding.
Read the two hadiths again and prove to me that it didn't say air was above and below Allah.
Two bad for you because I perceive yours is a case of deliberate ignorance.

Your argument is like saying, how can physical universe come into being from a spoken word!

I have shown you from the scripture the nature of my God YHWH.
He is simultaneously Everywhere as a Spirit
He is simultaneously on His Throne in the Heavens
He is anywhere else as the Word (Kunfayakun) where Gods Power is to be made manifest.

You and I understand that these Attributes is IMPOSSIBLE for Allah BUT don't commit the error of Generalisation.

It's okay if you cannot understand YHWH!

All a person needs to reject Islam is the Love for the Truth.
Unfortunately, Islam is a set of cascades of lies that you Muslims will deliberately TWIST the plain interpretation of your Qur'an and Hadiths for LIES cooked up by your scholars.

The truth sets free.

Dear NairaLTQ,

Thank you for your elaborate message. I will respond to your questions and objections directly, with clarity and sincerity, as you requested. However, I must also emphasize the importance of respectful dialogue in any serious theological discussion. Resorting to accusations of deliberate ignorance or deceit does not advance understanding — it only reinforces division.

1. On Jibril appearing as a man:

You asked:

> "When Jibril came to Mary as a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?"

No, Jibril (peace be upon him) did not stop being an angel. In Islamic belief, angels may assume a visible form for specific tasks (e.g., delivering messages), without ceasing to be what they are in essence. His outward appearance does not alter his essential created nature as an angel — a being created from light, fully subject to God's command. This is not incarnation in the Christian sense, where full divinity and full humanity are claimed to coexist in a single essence.

> "Did he have saliva, teeth, intestines?"

Islamic sources do not delve into such speculative physical details, as they are irrelevant to the purpose of revelation. The focus is on function, not anatomy. His form was recognized as a man, not as a literal transformation of substance.

This does not parallel the Christian claim that God Himself became fully human, lived as a man, was tempted, suffered, and died — while still being fully divine. The difference is qualitative and theological: angels are created beings assuming form, while in Christianity, the Creator is said to have become His own creation, which Islam considers a logical contradiction and theological error.

2. On Jesus being “a Spirit” and “Word” from Allah:

You asked:

> "Did Jesus stop being the Word or Spirit of Allah when he became a Messenger?"

No. According to Islamic theology:

Jesus (peace be upon him) is called a “Word from Allah” (kalimatun minhu) in the Qur’an (3:45) because he was brought into existence by God's command — “Be!” — without a father, as a miraculous sign.

He is also referred to as a “Spirit from Him” (roohun minhu) meaning a special soul created by God — not that he is a part of God’s essence.

This does not imply divinity. Every human has a spirit created by God. The phrasing “from Him” in Arabic does not imply a literal part of God’s being — it denotes honor and origin, not ontology.

> "If Jesus was killed, does that mean the Word and Spirit of Allah were killed?"

No. Death, in Islamic belief, does not mean annihilation of the soul or essence. The soul continues to exist in the Barzakh (intermediate realm). The physical body dies, but the Word and Spirit — being commands and created realities — remain under God’s control. Moreover, Islam holds that Jesus was not killed (Qur’an 4:157). He was raised, and will return before the end times.

3. On Allah’s Omnipresence:

You claim:

> “According to the Hadiths, air and water are above and below Allah. Therefore, Allah is not Omnipresent.”

Let me clarify the Islamic understanding.

Omnipresence in Islam does not mean that Allah is physically spread throughout space, like air or matter. God is not bound by time, space, or material dimensions. His knowledge, power, and control encom all things (Wa Huwa bi kulli shay’in Aleem, Qur’an 2:282).

The Hadith you cite does not deny omnipresence — it addresses the pre-creation state in a metaphorical or explanatory way for human understanding. Classical scholars understood such Hadiths in light of other verses that affirm God’s transcendence and complete knowledge.

Claiming Allah is a “subset of the universe” due to spatial references is a category error — treating the Creator as a physical object within creation, which Islamic theology strictly rejects.

In contrast, Christianity proposes that the transcendent God became a localized human being, subject to birth, hunger, ignorance, and death — which is a limitation by definition. Islam preserves God’s majesty by maintaining His absolute transcendence.

4. On scientific claims and so-called "errors" in the Qur’an:

These objections have been addressed in depth by Islamic scholars and researchers. Briefly:

The sperm and baby: The Qur’an describes embryological development in a way that correlates with observable stages — not in of modern molecular biology, but in accessible and metaphorical suitable for the audience. It is not a scientific textbook but a book of guidance.

Dhul Qarnayn and the sunset: The verse says he saw the sun setting in a murky spring (fi aynin hami’ah) — a description of perception, not literal cosmology. Even today, we say "the sun sets behind the mountains."

The Samaritan and the golden calf: Islamic sources use the term "Samaritan" (possibly “Samiri” referring to a transgressor, not necessarily the tribe of Samaria) — this is not a historical error but a translational or interpretive difference.

The Sleepers of the Cave: The Qur’an does not present this as a myth but a miracle — and asks readers to reflect, not deny. It highlights God's power over time and life, not natural science.

These are interpretive matters, not self-evident errors. Disagreement does not prove falsehood.

5. On the claim of “Trinity” in Islam regarding Jesus:

This is a misunderstanding.

In Islam, Jesus is:

A created human messenger

A word (command) from God

A spirit (soul) created by God

These are not persons within a divine being. There is no Trinity in Islam — Jesus is not co-equal or co-eternal with God. The Qur’an explicitly refutes the Trinity (Qur’an 4:171; 5:73), and insists on the absolute oneness of God.

To equate the Qur’anic honorifics for Jesus with Christian Trinitarian claims is to impose an external theology onto a different framework.

Conclusion:

You are free to hold your beliefs about God as per your conscience and scripture. I do not mock your doctrine — I challenge it respectfully because truth must be examined critically.

But Islam's view of God is one of absolute oneness, perfection, self-sufficiency, and transcendence — untouched by limitation, incarnation, or death.

Rather than dismissing this as “deliberate ignorance,” I invite you to consider: perhaps the reason Islam rejects the Incarnation is not because it cannot understand it, but because it sees it as a contradiction — a human attempt to explain the Divine by making Him like man.

God does not become man. He sends prophets to guide men.

May God guide us all to truth, sincerity, and mutual understanding.

With respect,
jimrohn

BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse advanceDNA

JimRohn:
Dear advanceDNA,


With respect and sincerity,
jimrohn

U still don't get it....ur entire argument is based on looking at Jesus in the lens of your so called perfect Allah without considering why Jesus walked the earth...and that's why it is an attempt at mockery...

Jesus did not just decide to walk the earth becos he felt like.. the bible clearly gave the reason .... therefore jesus being tempted, being hungry, or wateva u are trying to use to invalidate or mock the divinity of Jesus is a prerequisite because he came to sacrifice himself for a man who has all these same flaws of being hungry, tempted etc.....it is important for him to carry the very flaws of human nature and but akos be without sin o be the perfect sacrifice (and only God is without sin)

This might be hard for your to grasp becos of ur Muslim background and that's why I initially started that both faiths/beliefs are completely different ....

See....God gets angry and punishes, God is jealous and doesn't want you to serve other God, God is a lot of things our human mind cant begin to comprehend ......will u all say this is impossible becos anger, punishment and jealousy are flaws of human being as well??

With all due respect...who are u to tell God what he can be or cannot be for wateva purpose he wants to achieve....

Since my posts always receive a ban, I will break the response to this into two.
Secondly, it is not not necessary to put names every time you post. Once is enough.

JimRohn:
Dear NairaLTQ,

Thank you for your elaborate message. I will respond to your questions and objections directly, with clarity and sincerity, as you requested. However, I must also emphasize the importance of respectful dialogue in any serious theological discussion. Resorting to accusations of deliberate ignorance or deceit does not advance understanding — it only reinforces division.

1. On Jibril appearing as a man:
You asked:

> "When Jibril came to Mary as a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?"

No, Jibril (peace be upon him) did not stop being an angel. In Islamic belief, angels may assume a visible form for specific tasks (e.g., delivering messages), without ceasing to be what they are in essence. His outward appearance does not alter his essential created nature as an angel — a being created from light, fully subject to God's command. This is not incarnation in the Christian sense, where full divinity and full humanity are claimed to coexist in a single essence.

I agree, Jibril did not stop being an Angel even when he appeared as a perfect man. This is not a contradiction.
If per-chance, God appears as a perfect man on earth, does it mean he would momentarily stop being God?

JimRohn:

> "Did he have saliva, teeth, intestines?"
Islamic sources do not delve into such speculative physical details, as they are irrelevant to the purpose of revelation. The focus is on function, not anatomy. His form was recognized as a man, not as a literal transformation of substance.

This does not parallel the Christian claim that God Himself became fully human, lived as a man, was tempted, suffered, and died — while still being fully divine. The difference is qualitative and theological: angels are created beings assuming form, while in Christianity, the Creator is said to have become His own creation, which Islam considers a logical contradiction and theological error.

Have faith and trust the words of Allah in the Qur'an. If Jibril appeared as a perfect man, it means that he would have been INDISTINGUISHABLE from any human being. Meaning that whatever a human being has up to sweat glands, Jibril will have.
It means Jibril will possess every sense of touch, Taste, feel and even smell that human beings have.

If per-chance, God appears as a perfect man on earth, does it mean he would not be able to perceive smell or touch/feel or sense?

JimRohn:

2. On Jesus being “a Spirit” and “Word” from Allah:
You asked:
> "Did Jesus stop being the Word or Spirit of Allah when he became a Messenger?"

No. According to Islamic theology:

Jesus (peace be upon him) is called a “Word from Allah” (kalimatun minhu) in the Qur’an (3:45) because he was brought into existence by God's command — “Be!” — without a father, as a miraculous sign.

He is also referred to as a “Spirit from Him” (roohun minhu) meaning a special soul created by God — not that he is a part of God’s essence.

This does not imply divinity. Every human has a spirit created by God. The phrasing “from Him” in Arabic does not imply a literal part of God’s being — it denotes honor and origin, not ontology.

Good!
I did not ask if the attribute mean divinity or not. But you have answered the question.
As a full human being, Jesus would NOT stop being a Spirit from Allah and his Word cast down to Mary.

Redefining what you mean holds no water as just as you hold us by the words of the scripture, allow us to hold you by the words of the Qur'an and Hadiths.

RUH=Spirit and Nafs=Soul in Arabic.
Except your Argument is that the almighty Allah doesn't know the precise difference between Soul and Spirit.

Even then, your prophet understand this by calling the Lord Jesus Ruhullah! Please do not re-interprete what is already plain simply because the implications is horrible for you.

JimRohn:

> "If Jesus was killed, does that mean the Word and Spirit of Allah were killed?"

No. Death, in Islamic belief, does not mean annihilation of the soul or essence. The soul continues to exist in the Barzakh (intermediate realm). The physical body dies, but the Word and Spirit — being commands and created realities — remain under God’s control. Moreover, Islam holds that Jesus was not killed (Qur’an 4:157). He was raised, and will return before the end times.

You have answered your main question!
If per-chance God became a man and his physical body was killed, does it mean that God had been killed?

JimRohn:

3. On Allah’s Omnipresence:
You claim:
> “According to the Hadiths, air and water are above and below Allah. Therefore, Allah is not Omnipresent.”

Let me clarify the Islamic understanding.

Omnipresence in Islam does not mean that Allah is physically spread throughout space, like air or matter. God is not bound by time, space, or material dimensions. His knowledge, power, and control encom all things (Wa Huwa bi kulli shay’in Aleem, Qur’an 2:282).

The Hadith you cite does not deny omnipresence — it addresses the pre-creation state in a metaphorical or explanatory way for human understanding. Classical scholars understood such Hadiths in light of other verses that affirm God’s transcendence and complete knowledge.

Claiming Allah is a “subset of the universe” due to spatial references is a category error — treating the Creator as a physical object within creation, which Islamic theology strictly rejects.

In contrast, Christianity proposes that the transcendent God became a localized human being, subject to birth, hunger, ignorance, and death — which is a limitation by definition. Islam preserves God’s majesty by maintaining His absolute transcendence.

Muslims behave like Allah and his prophet are the worst communicators in the universe.
The direct words of Allah and his prophet has to be interpreted to say something other than exactly what they said.

Tell me, wouldn't it be precise to say that Nothing was above or below Allah than AIR was above and below Allah? If Allah is sandwiched between Air above and air with water below, Allah is a SUBSET of the Universe.

Do you take your religion from Allah and his prophet or from non-inspired Islamic scholars!?

JimRohn:

4. On scientific claims and so-called "errors" in the Qur’an:
These objections have been addressed in depth by Islamic scholars and researchers. Briefly:
The sperm and baby: The Qur’an describes embryological development in a way that correlates with observable stages — not in of modern molecular biology, but in accessible and metaphorical suitable for the audience. It is not a scientific textbook but a book of guidance.

So, let's check.
Quran 75:37
Had he not been a sperm from semen emitted?

Tell me, is any human being a sperm OR he is a fusion of sperm and ovum? How many chromosomes do we find in a full human being and how many chromosomes are in a sperm?

Quran 75:38
then he became a clot, and then Allah made it into a living body and proportioned its parts,

Tell me, what does a sperm become in a human female womb?

Is it untrue that your prophet says that the sperm will stay for 40 days in the womb?

Sahih Muslim 2644
Hudhaifa b. Usaid reported directly from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) that he said:

When the drop of (semen) remains in the womb for forty or forty five nights, the angel comes and says: My Lord, will he be good or evil? And both these things would be written. Then the angel says: My Lord, would he be male or female? And both these things are written. And his deeds and actions, his death, his livelihood; these are also recorded. Then his document of destiny is rolled and there is no addition to nor subtraction from it.

JimRohn:

Dhul Qarnayn and the sunset: The verse says he saw the sun setting in a murky spring (fi aynin hami’ah) — a description of perception, not literal cosmology. Even today, we say "the sun sets behind the mountains."

LOL
Do you concede that Allah was the one relating the story and not Dhul Qarnyn? (Qur'an 18:83)
Did Allah say that
1. Dhul Qarnyn found the sun setting in some dark murky waters?
2. Dhul Qarnyn found a people near this dark murky water?

I guess, Dhul Qarnyn appeared to find a people there: is that true?
3. Can you show us by Google map: The wall that was constructed to prevent Yājūj and Mājūj from causing further destruction and hardship to people?.

Don you see why it is the job of your scholars to rewrite the words of Allah and his prophet to correct several blunders like this?

JimRohn:

The Samaritan and the golden calf: Islamic sources use the term "Samaritan" (possibly “Samiri” referring to a transgressor, not necessarily the tribe of Samaria) — this is not a historical error but a translational or interpretive difference.

Initially, it Al-Samari mean the Samaritan BUT because of recent scholarship, you have to find a new culprit for it.

Tafsirs Al-Jalalayn Quran20:85
But those he supposed [to be following him] had remained behind, for He, exalted be He, said, ‘Indeed We tried your people after you, that is, after your departure from them, and the Samaritan led them astray’, so they took to worshipping the )golden) calf.

JimRohn:

The Sleepers of the Cave: The Qur’an does not present this as a myth but a miracle — and asks readers to reflect, not deny. It highlights God's power over time and life, not natural science.

These are interpretive matters, not self-evident errors. Disagreement does not prove falsehood.

How can it be a miracle when it is a myth treated as real by Allah and Mohammed.

The earliest written version of the story comes from Christian bishop and writer Jacob of Serugh, who wrote an of the sleepers in Syriac. The story begins in the Roman Empire around 250 CE.

The story wasn't even real. It was written to encourage Christians who were being persecuted to encourage them that bad times will end.

Now, we find a fiction entering the Book of Allah as a miracle!? Tell me, how can the story of Superman or Batman somehow become a miracle?

JimRohn:

5. On the claim of “Trinity” in Islam regarding Jesus:
This is a misunderstanding.
In Islam, Jesus is:
A created human messenger
A word (command) from God
A spirit (soul) created by God

These are not persons within a divine being. There is no Trinity in Islam — Jesus is not co-equal or co-eternal with God. The Qur’an explicitly refutes the Trinity (Qur’an 4:171; 5:73), and insists on the absolute oneness of God.

Let's see what Allah said:

Qur'an 4:171
"O People of the Scripture, do not exceed in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclination of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and strayed from the sound way.
And [mention, O People of the Scripture], the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He cast down to Mary and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, 'Three'; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs."

Who should we believe, you or Allah?
1. Jesus is a Messenger of Allah
2. Jesus is the Word of Allah (His Word) cast down to Mary
3. Jesus is the Spirit FROM Allah

You have to redefine Spirit to mean Soul even against your prophet who calls Jesus Ruhullah!

Can you see how Muslims have no respect for Allah's word or their prophet's word in order that they might propagate an Islam according to their corrections

JimRohn:

To equate the Qur’anic honorifics for Jesus with Christian Trinitarian claims is to impose an external theology onto a different framework.

Conclusion:
You are free to hold your beliefs about God as per your conscience and scripture. I do not mock your doctrine — I challenge it respectfully because truth must be examined critically.

But Islam's view of God is one of absolute oneness, perfection, self-sufficiency, and transcendence — untouched by limitation, incarnation, or death.

Rather than dismissing this as “deliberate ignorance,” I invite you to consider: perhaps the reason Islam rejects the Incarnation is not because it cannot understand it, but because it sees it as a contradiction — a human attempt to explain the Divine by making Him like man.

God does not become man. He sends prophets to guide men.

May God guide us all to truth, sincerity, and mutual understanding.

With respect,
jimrohn

God is ONE according to Christians BUT in order to sell Islam, Allah, his prophet and you Muslims must claim we mean that God is THREE.

As Christians, Jesus is our ransom from Hell Fire: but for you as Muslims, Jews and Christians are your own ransom. Does this make any sense to you that people who need to be ransomed are your own ransom.?

MaxInDHouse:

So you means Jesus and all his disciples are CULT because that's exactly what he taught them! Matthew 10:24-25

Again, why did founder of JW leave the "cult". Can't you see you'll always lose arguing from that angle?
Also you keep indiscriminately throwing out verses from the bible knowing no one has time to look them up. Tell us how Mathew 10:24&25 relates to the JW shunning we'er discussing